As the headwinds of a turning economy impact more and more consumers, understanding how #debtsettlement fits into the credit ecosystem makes for a timely conversation. Teresa Dodson, founder of Greenbacks Consulting and the leading expert on debt settlement, stops by #creditecotogo to set the record straight about debt settlement. Consumers enrolled in legitimate debt settlement companies want to resolve their debts; they are not looking for excuses or loopholes from their responsibilities. However, the average consumer looking for assistance from debt settlement companies are juggling 6-8 credit cards at a time. A consumer can try to tackle that reality on their own but more likely it will become overwhelming, Teresa also tells us that consumers’ priorities have flipped. Prior to the pandemic consumers focused on their credit, now consumers are more concerned about paying for their necessities (i.e. food, clothing, shelter and transportation). To meet these new priorities, debt settlement companies will be instrumental in bringing important services to consumers.
DISCLAIMER – No information contained in this Podcast or on this Website shall constitute financial, investment, legal and/or other professional advice and that no professional relationship of any kind is created between you and podcast host, the guests or Clark Hill PLC. You are urged to speak with your financial, investment, or legal advisors before making any investment or legal decisions.
DISCLAIMER – No information contained in this Podcast or on this Website shall constitute financial, investment, legal and/or other professional advice and that no professional relationship of any kind is created between you and podcast host, the guests or Clark Hill PLC. You are urged to speak with your financial, investment, or legal advisors before making any investment or legal decisions.
As the headwinds of a turning economy impact more and more consumers, understanding how #debtsettlement fits into the credit ecosystem makes for a timely conversation. Teresa Dodson, founder of Greenbacks Consulting and the leading expert on debt settlement, stops by #creditecotogo to set the record straight about debt settlement. Consumers enrolled in legitimate debt settlement companies want to resolve their debts; they are not looking for excuses or loopholes from their responsibilities. However, the average consumer looking for assistance from debt settlement companies are juggling 6-8 credit cards at a time. A consumer can try to tackle that reality on their own but more likely it will become overwhelming, Teresa also tells us that consumers’ priorities have flipped. Prior to the pandemic consumers focused on their credit, now consumers are more concerned about paying for their necessities (i.e. food, clothing, shelter and transportation). To meet these new priorities, debt settlement companies will be instrumental in bringing important services to consumers.
DISCLAIMER – No information contained in this Podcast or on this Website shall constitute financial, investment, legal and/or other professional advice and that no professional relationship of any kind is created between you and podcast host, the guests or Clark Hill PLC. You are urged to speak with your financial, investment, or legal advisors before making any investment or legal decisions.
DISCLAIMER – No information contained in this Podcast or on this Website shall constitute financial, investment, legal and/or other professional advice and that no professional relationship of any kind is created between you and podcast host, the guests or Clark Hill PLC. You are urged to speak with your financial, investment, or legal advisors before making any investment or legal decisions.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Clark Hill's Credity Go To Go, curbside thought leadership for financial services. My name is Joanne Needleman and I am a partner at Clark Hill as well as a member of the firm's banking and financial services practice group. As we head into an uncertain economy and the debt load among consumers is reaching record highs, um, I think we're going to have a very important conversation today. The latest statistics as of September 2022 show consumer debt at 16. 5 trillion, with an average consumer debt, um, average consumer debt at 96, 000. And that includes credit card balances, student loans, mortgages, car loans, etc. Inflation is at a 40 year high, affecting everything from food, energy, and everyday services. So it only seems fitting that we have a discussion today about debt settlement and debt resolution and how it fits into the credit ecosystem. So to help me do that and help our podcast listeners understand this subject and an important subject, I am so fortunate to have one of the leading experts in the field today. Teresa Dotson has been focused on the debt settlement industry since 2003. During her time in the industry, she served as C. O. O. of 2 large debt settlement companies and has built 2 more from the ground up current. Currently, she is the founder and president of greenbacks consulting, which provides consulting services to debt settlement companies, collection agencies. Software developers, investors, and private equity firms. Since 2008, she has also been on the board of directors for the American fair credit council, the AFCC for over 16 years, more recently, Teresa started a nonprofit called women of debt relief and association that brings women in the financial services industry together to provide opportunities to grow personally and professionally through leadership. Education, networking, support and recognition. Her group supports all debt relief options for consumers, including debt, settlement, credit, counseling, collections, consumer, financial education, lending, payment processing and marketing. Its mission is to be collaborative, supportive. Share ideas, and in an effort to be stronger together in our professional and personal lives. So, Teresa, thank you so much for coming out of the podcast today. This is something that we really need to understand and really support why. Something like a debt settlement is helpful in the ecosystem. But before we do that, you know, I do want to say that words matter and there's so much interchanging of debt settlement, credit counseling, debt management, credit repair. So let's define and talk about debt settlement, about what it is and what it isn't. Sounds good. Thank you so much, Joan, for having me on the On this podcast, um, and have the opportunity to be able to explain what the differences are because, um, you know, I'm just as involved in the collection space and there seems to be a little bit of confusion as to, okay, what is this account? Is this in debt settlement or is it not? You know, um, and there, there has been some confusion. So I think this is really timely, especially as you, uh, pointed out, the delinquencies are rising and, you know, we need to be able to better understand where these consumers are in this ecosystem and how do you best handle them? Um, so for debt settlement, I mean, it's pretty easy to define, um, you know, the consumers have enrolled in a debt settlement program typically because they're on that edge of they're getting ready to go delinquent, or maybe they've missed a payment or two. They're completely maxed out on everything. Their interest rate on all of their cards is well over 25%. Um, Yes, and growing because think about it when you're maxed out on a credit card, um, or God forbid you do miss one payment and you're trying to catch up. What happens? Your interest rate goes to the roof. Right. So think about a consumer has an average of about eight credit cards that they enroll in a debt settlement program. So your interest rate doubling, let's say in some cases on eight of those cards all at once. What do you think that does to a consumer's minimum payment? You know, they're, you know, it's it's created. It's a problem, right? Um, so debt settlement is specifically designed for that reason is to help consumers that, you know, financially qualify for a 50 percent settlement or, you know, 55, whatever that that may be, um, because they can't afford to make those minimum payments anymore. So we do a whole budget analysis on them to see if they qualify. I don't want somebody in a debt settlement program that can't afford to pay their creditors back at least half of what they owe. Um, and some of these consumers we come across are in a really bad way to where they can't. Um, but our consumer for a debt settlement program is somebody that is employed. Um, somebody that just got completely overwhelmed with debt and it could be for various reasons, divorce. Job loss. Um, multitude of life, right? Life, maybe a pandemic. Yeah. Oh, that there's that. Yes. And that is definitely at a big impact on our industry as well as collections. Right. And, um, but what we're seeing is that debt settlement, because as you said, the default rates are increasing. Well, so are debt settlement enrollment. So for your listeners to be able to understand that if they're not already working with that settlement accounts, or if they are working with them, finding a way to be as efficient as possible and working with those accounts, I think is going to be critically important because the increase of enrollment is about 20 percent a month. Okay, so you get to the end of this year, which we're getting close to that now, I mean, and the first quarter of next year, that's a tremendous amount of consumers that are sitting in debt settlement that have the ability to pay not the full amount, but they want to get out of debt. Um, they have the desire to do so instead of doing nothing. Um, but that's a debt settlement client. What we are not, I think it's easier to explain. Yeah. We are not, and I repeat, not debt validation. Um, we are not credit repair. What debt validation is, is you're going to, if you're a collection agency, um, you're going to receive, or even a creditor, you're going to receive some kind of a letter from a debt validation company asking you to validate debt. And then they just, they just inundate you with a... series of letters and they're trying and what they have promised the consumer is that we're going to find a way for this debt not to be validated and you won't owe anything. Right. Which is just horrible. Um, in the debt settlement space, we look at that validation. People is just complete, you know, criminals. Um, we just, we don't want to be associated with them. And unfortunately we've gotten looped into that and it's really nobody's fault. It's just, if you're a collection agency, you don't know the difference of what that is. You have no idea. But if you get somebody that is just trying to constantly get you to validate the debt and pushing things off and pushing things off, that is not debt settlement. And that is a debt validation company. And by all means, don't deal with them. I wouldn't. Right. Because they're charging the consumer. Um, and the thing about debt settlement is we don't charge the consumer until we successfully settle a, uh, you know, an account. And that's part of the, you know, that's part of when we got regulated in 2010. So we are straight performance based. So a reputable debt settlement company is going to be very much performance based. Unless they're being represented by an attorney, then that's a little bit of a different dynamic. And there's nothing wrong with that. But the majority of all debt settlement is we work for free until we settle a debt for you. Debt validation companies charge consumers money up front for a service they never provide to them successfully, and it's just criminal. So we don't want to be that, and we're definitely not credit repair. We don't, in the debt settlement space, we don't, we know that credit repair is something that can be used in a way that's good. Um, but what we're seeing is in the credit repair space. Um, there's just a lot of people in that space that aren't doing doing it the right way. Um, and they are charging a lot of upfront fees and promising the consumer that they're going to be able to remove stuff from their credit that they're never going to be able to remove. Right. Um, credit repair is a great tool for somebody. Let's say they've gone through debt settlement and they've completed the program and now they just want to make sure all the credit bureaus are updated because not all the time, you know, do they get updated correctly? And so we, yeah, and so we recommend that and that's okay, but not until the end of the program. And so. If you get anything, if you're, you know, a collection agency or a creditor and you get credit repair info that's coming to you, like, you know, we want, want this information validated or updated on the credit report, or they're trying to dispute the debt altogether. That is not that settlement. We're not trying to dispute the debt. We agree that there's a debt. We, we, we want a really good relationship with creditors and collection agencies, which we've worked really hard to achieve, and we've done a pretty good job. We've come a long way from what, God, when I first got in the industry. I can imagine. Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, really bad. But now, you know, we do scrub lists. We exchange scrub lists back and forth. We identify accounts on a monthly basis. You know, we have predetermined settlement parameters that we work with people on. So it's changed a lot. Um. But anybody that's going to continuously send you stuff to validate that or have it removed, that's not a, I guess that's probably the easiest way to identify the difference. Yeah. Well, I mean, terrific explanation. I think there's a lot to unpack there. I guess my other, you know, a question that always comes up is, and I, you know, you see this a lot with especially consumer advocates and regulators. Why can't the consumer just call the creditor themselves and try to work it out? Yeah, that's a that's a great question. Is that I mean. Is that viable? I mean, and there's a lot of things that we can do for free. You know, I can go get my hair cut. You know, I can go sit in my bathroom and color my hair, but I choose not to, you know, uh, but I, I hear that a lot from regulators. So, is it that creditors don't want to that? They're not set up to do it. What are the characteristics of a good debt settlement company that can really help a consumer better than having the consumer tried on their own? I like that you bring this up because it's, it's come up a million times over the years that I've been in this business. And my, my answer to why can't this consumer do it on its, on their own? I say they can. They absolutely can. But do they know when? Do they know how? Um, most consumers don't understand that they're not going to be able to settle for less than full balance unless they distress that debt, unless it goes into charge off or pre charge off, which means you have to stop paying your creditor. And, you know, you're not making your payments. I mean, what, what creditor is going to settle an account with you if you're making your minimum payments on time? There's no, you know, and they have guidelines from the OCC that dictate how and when they can resolve these accounts. And so even if I've got a bank, that's willing. You know, they've got rules and procedure and policy in place that dictate that they're not able to. I've talked to many creditors over the years that are like, gosh, I wish I could settle with you right now. I wish I could settle with you at month three, you know, um, when it's in pre charge off. And, you know, we know that this consumer, you've explained to me what situation they're in. There's no way we're going to get back 100 percent of what we owe, but, you know, it's very strict on the percentages that can be offered as far as settlement throughout that entire process. Um, so I think a lot of the creditors are willing. But they're just they're restricted and they can't really do it now a consumer trying to call up and, you know, I've had this happen with consumers before over the years, they call up and say, hey, let's say I'm talking to bank one whatever chase. Hey, I, I've, you know, I've gotten going through a divorce. Half my income is gone. I'm not able to make the minimum payments right now. What can you do for me? And let's say they've only missed one payment. Well, we can, we can reduce your interest rate and we can put you, you know, reduce your minimum monthly payments. And that's fine for one creditor, but did that really address the other seven? Right. And that's where the aha moment comes. For a creditor, understanding the debt settlement process in this ecosystem is that we're not trying to solve for one creditor. If that was the case, that would make everybody's life a lot easier, right? But if you're trying to solve for an average of eight, and so eight of these guys across the board, they've got to agree to these terms in some way or find a way to be able to resolve these accounts. And a consumer trying to manage that on their own, if they don't understand the collection buckets, How it works, the process of, you know, pre charge off to post charge off all of those things. They're going to have a very difficult time getting those accounts settled because the first thing a consumer is going to do is I'm going to see what the creditor can do for me. The creditor wants money to settle account. Let's say, even if the client was delinquent, let's say they were six months delinquent. It's been charged off. Okay, and the consumer wants to settle that account. Well, the creditor will say, okay, fine, I'll settle it for 50%. Okay, well the consumer doesn't have money.. Right, right. They did. They did. They weren't put on a program like that. Settlement will do for them to accumulate and se and save money for the purpose of settle. So that's a lot of the times of the consumer tries to do it themselves, they find that they really don't have a solution because they didn't plan accordingly. Right. And they don't have the money to pay it. Right. There's, as you say, there's a lot of thought involved. It also sounds like your industry is really about relationships. I mean, it sounds like you have to really develop, uh, and really put a lot of effort into developing those relationships with those creditors. I mean, you can't just call up tomorrow. As you say, bank one and start having this conversation. It sounds like it's been years of getting them to trust you, getting them to have an important dialogue so that you can help the consumer move forward. A hundred percent. Um, you know, it's, it's been many, ever since I've been in the industry, I've been working on those relationships and we've made a lot of headway. Um, meaning, you know, Term settlement payment arrangements were something that never existed before. You know, it was only, hey, if you can pay me in one lump, that's it. That's the only offer. But once we started educating the other side of the industry on, look, these specific consumers, if we can get you into a settlement early on and you split it over six months, I can get you paid sooner. And, you know, you'll be first in line for it. And then the next person and the next person, you know, and once they understood the process, it's really helped. A handful of collection agencies that I know develop departments that are specifically for debt settlement accounts. Yep. And you know, and even in the banks, there's specifically debt settlement accounts that they, that they have a department for, um, because those accounts again, They, they, they have the desire to pay and they have somewhat of an ability to pay because they've been put on a savings program to do that versus a consumer. That's just like, well, let's just have you save on your own. And hopefully when it's time to settle, you'll have money, you know, you know, we're pretty strict about that. Yeah, interesting. So, you know, along those lines, we talk a lot about creditors. Um, you know, a lot of the, you know, when I talk to consumer advocates over the years, um, and when they look at debt, they look at it from the initiation of the debt. You shouldn't have had the debt anyway, or when you had the relationship with the creditor. Uh, the, the, the creditor lured you into spending more than you needed to spend, or there was additional fees, or, you know, your rate was too high to begin with. You know, what responsibilities do creditors have? And, and I say that with a lot of trepidation representing a lot of creditors, but it is an ecosystem and everybody's got a part in it. But what responsibilities do creditors have to ensure that they're not pushing consumers into that delinquent, delinquent ecosystem? That's a loaded question. I know. I know. I'm sorry. You know, it all goes back to responsible lending, right? And, and it really goes back to your underwriting criteria. Like when you're giving a credit card and I'll just pull out a horrible example, but it happens every day. Right. Um, I mean, I'll tiptoe on this one, but you know, when you've got credit card issuers sitting at a college campus, just with a booth, even ready to hand out credit cards to students that haven't even don't even have a job, you know, they don't even have a job. They have really no way to pay back except for mom and dad. You know, it's, you know, that's kind of, you got to think about, you know, the chances of that defaulting could be kind of high. Um, or, you know, you, I mean, creditors have, you know, access to credit reports all day, every day. Right. And you can see when a consumer, you know, especially if you've given them a credit card, why would you raise what their credit limit is? If you know, they only make 40, 000 a year, if they make 40 or 50, 000 a year, why would I raise their limit to 10 grand? And I see that happening all the time. How are they ever going to afford to pay that back? So it would be really helpful for two, two things that I think would be super helpful to help this ecosystem in a more positive way. If issuers would be a little bit more mindful about that. But you know, I don't know their world and, you know, completely. And maybe, maybe that's something they can't change. I don't know. But I also think it starts with consumer financial education. So consumers, I mean, and they're getting better about it. I know they're making it a big requirement and a lot of the high schools now that it is a course that you need to pass before you can graduate. Thank God. Right. And the more that we start doing that, the better that consumers we hope will be more responsible with credit card debt, with loans, other private loans, other things that they do in their life. Because, Liz, I mean, the consumer's not, you know, they're not blameless. I mean, I know, I mean, I did it when I was in my early 20s. Oh my gosh, I had credit cards. I'm like, woohoo, let's go shopping, you know. So, you know, but luckily I didn't get myself in a totally bad situation, but that happens all the time. So consumers are just as much to blame in overspending. Um, but in some cases, especially during this whole pandemic, they didn't have a choice because they needed to use their cards. Right. And so that's what we're seeing. We're seeing a lot of consumers were forced to use their credit cards during this time because of that hardship of going through the pandemic. Maybe they couldn't work for three months, you know, whatever the case may be. Um, so I think it's something that could be looked at on both sides. Will that change? I don't know, but that's what contributes to a lot of the defaults that are going on. I agree. I think we're going to see that a lot in the next. This quarter and into the next year. Um, as I said in the beginning, prices are going up. So, you know, if you normally put your gas on your credit card, which, you know, I think most people do, you know, you budgeted for it to be, you know, 50 a month, say, ha ha. Now it's a hundred dollars a month or whatever it can be. So I think there's going to be a lot of, it is not necessarily Overspending or irresponsibility, but it's just the economy in general, um, which is going to make it really difficult. Yeah, and I think this is something I, I mean, I want to be able to point out to, I think on both sides of the fence on the creditor and collection side and debt settlement side, um, credit counseling, even like any kind of financial, you know, relief at all, the dynamic has changed substantially because of the pandemic. Right. Um, in talking with consumers, it's so mind blowing, like psychologically how things have changed with them and their relationship with their debt and with money. Um, they have really, they don't want to go into debt. They don't want to be delinquent, but they also are like, my priority is. My food, my health, and the roof over my head. Oh, and my car, because I've got to get back and forth to work. Right. You know, and that's something I have to have. Um, and they're really looking at their necessities as, you know, and before they didn't look at that that way, which I always found very interesting. Right. They didn't look at their necessities as a priority. Their credit was a priority. And now it's flipped. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, that's an interesting cycle dynamic that I've seen change. Yeah, I think that's in some ways I think that's good and I think we also learn my observation, uh, in the pandemic is that there is a sense that. Consumers don't know or don't understand. I got the sense during the pandemic that they understand their finances really well, and it was really important to them. And we saw, you know, saw, you know, in 2020 and 2021 before there was really significant inflation, people paying down debt. That was a big people use stimulus not to buy TVs, but to pay down debt to survive. And I think that gives, you know, I think we need to give consumers a lot more credit. Uh, credit, not necessarily credit to spend, but credit because, uh, they're, they're being intelligent about, uh, their financial wherewithal. And I, I think sometimes we don't do that enough. Agreed. Agreed. I mean, the biggest concern most consumers have when they come into a debt settlement program is their credit score. Right. What's going to happen to it? Well, right now it's sitting at a 680 because you're maxed out on everything. You couldn't get a loan if you wanted to. Yeah, it's going to take a dump, but you're going to, but the light at the end of the tunnel is getting out of debt. Um, but we, I did find that very interesting that the minute they had extra stimulus money, what did they do? They threw it at their credit card companies and paid off the credit card company. Yep. And that was shocking to everybody. Yep. I didn't see that coming. Nope. No, not at all. But that's how much they care. They don't want, they don't want to be in trouble with their bank. And by the way, can most consumers still feel, feel that they have a personal relationship with Bank of America, a personal relationship with Wells Fargo. Which I always find very interesting. Um, the brand loyalty from a consumer to a bank is high. And one of the banks that I think has been fantastic at nurturing that is Capital One. Yes. Capital One has done a brilliant job at nurturing that relationship and, and creating, or I should say feeding that illusion that there is an actual relationship, even though they're a huge bank. Yeah, because the consumer gets in trouble. They help them resolve it. They're very, you know, settlement friendly and their whole goal is I want to get this paid off and rehabilitate this client so I can give him another credit card, you know, so they're interesting. I don't see a lot of other brands do that outside of cap one. But I think that's worth noting that a consumer. If you can nurture that they have a tremendous amount of loyalty to their bank and they really feel there's a personal relationship there. Well, it's their lifeline. Um, and, and they do appreciate that. You know, the last topic I want to talk about, we discussed this when we were prepping for the podcast is, is you made an interesting comment and you said that debt settlement is not credit. And I think that's an important thing because I, you know, for people who don't really understand the value of debt settlement, and people think it's just a way of consumers not paying their debt. I want you to elaborate on that more because I think that is a really important, um, issue and important concept that I think we need to understand when we look at your industry. And when you mean, just to make sure I answer this correctly. Um, so when you mean, um, it's not. Credit. What do you, what do you mean? Well, when you and I were talking, I think that people think that debt, you know, by doing a debt settlement, people, people then now are just extending their credit more, you know, that it's, it's just an opportunity to get more credit because they've done this debt settlement. And it's, it's not, it's, you know, it's. Debt settlement is not, it's a benefit to the extent that it is helping the consumer get out from under debt and make their credit better, but it is not an opportunity to expand credit. Absolutely not. Thank you for that clarification. No problem. So yeah, I mean, bottom line, when a consumer comes to us, um, you know, one of the things that they'll say is, well, can I keep this card out? You know, we're like, no. Your goal is to get out of debt. All of your cards need to go in, you know, all of your unsecured debt needs to go in and we need to resolve it all. You're either in or you're out. Because I will tell you right now, we can leave that card out, but the minute you start going to Lincoln on all those other cards, guess what's going to happen to that card. That card, they're going to reduce your balance. And then what does that do? That puts you over the limit, takes your interest rate through the roof. And then the next step is they close it all together. I go, banks are smart. They say they check and monitor your activity. And they know if you're delinquent on other, other accounts, and they're going to minimize their risk. So. No, we're not credit. We're, we're to get you out of debt. And these consumers, they cannot get extra credit. They can't even get credit when they first come to us. So a consumer that's qualified for debt settlement, and it's like that, what that example that I used a little earlier, they think a 680 is a good credit score. No, it's not. It's not a good credit score when you're maxed out at 100 percent utilization rate or more. Bottom line is you're not going to get a loan anywhere to bail you out. Nobody is going to qualify you for this, right? So they're in a situation that that's not an option to get additional credit at all. Yeah, yeah, it is. And, but it's, um, It seems that a lot more consumers are embracing this and understanding, you know, how this ecosystem works. Um, and I'm sure it's, it's a constant battle that you have and getting them to appreciate it, but, uh, it is fascinating. Boy, are you going to be busy in the next six months? You and your clients both. So Teresa, I can't thank you enough for providing, uh, an education on this, uh, because it is important. And I hope you'll come back and we can see what the next, what, what the next six months will bring. And hopefully more and more consumers can get on top of what I'm sure is some, uh, pretty dire financial, uh, headwinds. That we're going to see, uh, for sure. Um, but before I let you go, I just have, uh, two quick questions. I ask all my guests on the podcast. Uh, the first is, um, so I, you know, when I started the podcast, uh, oh my God, well over two years ago, Um, I would say to people, you know, well, what are you doing? Because we're all sitting at home. I started a podcast. That's what I did during COVID. Um, but, uh, you know, what are you doing now? So I had some very, really interesting, uh, shelter in place stories, but now, uh, thankfully we're, we're out and about. And thankfully you and I were out and about in Washington a couple weeks ago where I had the pleasure of meeting you and spending some time with you. But, uh, now that we are, uh, Have left our homes for the most part. I'm wondering what you've been doing in the last 20 months that you would not have done but for COVID. Good question. I knew you were going to ask me this too. You know what I, well, you know, I did two things and I don't know if it was just like luck or an accident, but you know, it's stuff that I didn't focus on as much before, but, um, right before the pandemic, you know, we had bought a house and it was like literally January of 2020 when we closed. So we just kind of went, we were so fortunate. We went nuts and we kind of like built a little oasis here at the house. Because I've always worked from home for the last, you know, even before the pandemic. So I was really geared up and ready for it. But oh my gosh, I'm on lockdown and I can't go anywhere. Okay, I want to make sure that I don't lose my mind. So I really focused on what things can I put in my home that creates an environment where I'm doing other activities other than just being at home doing the laundry and working. You know what I'm saying? So try to create different activities around the house that would keep me from going nuts. Um, that was one. And I really, really got back into focusing on physical fitness, um, because I knew that mentally I'm going to need it. Um, not, well, not only definitely needed it physically, but I don't know about that. No, I really did. It was okay. Um, but it mentally kept me from, again, I just kept focusing on things that are going to keep me from going insane, you know, because being on lockdown like that and me being a very social person and very active, what am I going to do to make sure that I don't lose it? You know, and stay focused and, you know, doing different things like that around the house and really focusing on physical fitness helped me tremendously. Because as you know, when you work out, like, you know, you're just, your mind's fresh and you know, you kind of relieves a lot of stress and everything else. And I took up boxing. Oh, wonderful. Oh, I love boxing. So, you know what, for anybody that's got, you know, Hidden anger issues. I highly recommend it. You could just sit there and punch the crap out of stuff when you're at the gym. It's amazing. I love it. I just love it. Oh, that's great. That is great. And, um, finally, um, in consideration of your time and coming on and having this wonderful conversation, uh, what we like to do here at the podcast is have our guests identify. Um, initially when, again, when we started, we focused a lot on food, uh, hence the to go theme, uh, because, you know, one of the things that really, my big takeaway during the pandemic was watching people in car lines. I'm like, what? What's that about? I mean, I'm that's not something that I ever saw in my lifetime. You know, certainly when there's a hurricane or some sort of short term natural disaster, you know, people, you need to get water. You need to get, you know, uh, goods and things that, you know, because stores are closed, but to see people in line for food that really kind of resonated with me. So I had my initial, you know, first slew of guests talk about. Food pantries and food banks that, you know, maybe we're in their area. And over the last couple of years, we've expanded that to have our guests identify any worthwhile organization that you, you know, are aligned with whether whether it's national, regional, local that you would like to identify and, uh, credit go to go. We'll make a small donation on your behalf. So I hope there's, uh, an organization that you could talk about. Absolutely. Um. So there's two organizations, uh, one, which I, you know, it's just local. Cause I believe in really, you know, we live in just North of Dallas and we live in kind of like, it's building up out here, but it's farmland. So we were really fortunate that when a lot of those lines were at the grocery stores, a lot of the farms around here opened up. to where they would sell you eggs, milk, you know, um, you know, vegetables, stuff like that, which was super helpful. And I'm fortunate to live and live in a community that really supports each other. Um, so I do donate to, cause I am a huge animal lover. huge. I like them better than humans. Um, um, and so there is a horse and donkey rescue that's here locally that I love. And I donate to that personally every month, but the bigger organization that actually is more important to me than anything is my husband's a veteran. Um, and a lot of my, my family is, and, you know, there's tons of organizations out there to donate to help veterans, which I appreciate so much because they need all the help they can, they can get, especially those that are, that are injured or, you know, have PTSD, stuff like that. I mean, these are serious concerns and serious problems that really affect these people that have defended, you know, our freedom and I respect the heck out of them. And I'm like, what better organization than one that actually provides dogs, uh, like service dogs for veterans. I love it. So it combines, you know, something that I love so much, which is, you know, my husband, obviously, and everything he's done for us and all of my family and the veterans, but service dogs that are free for combat veterans that need them. Yeah, and it's a nonprofit organization. And the one that I, uh, it's DFW canines for veterans. Um, so it's here, it is here locally in Dallas, but I mean, I just, I love this organization. I love the fact that it does include both things that, that are passionate about. And, you know, a dog, if anybody is a dog lover, like I am, they realize that dogs can really change your life as far as your stress. Um, and just everything else. I mean, they're just so they're good for your soul. So I love seeing that organization and that's the one that I really believe in. Well, we are more than happy to recognize them and make a donation on your behalf. And it's definitely a worthwhile, uh, organization, uh, as you've explained it. So Teresa, again, thank you so much. For coming onto the podcast today and many thanks to our loyal credit. He go to go listeners for tuning in and logging on all episodes of credit. He go to go can be found on buzzsprout and Spotify information on our podcast can also be found on my car kill. com bio page. as well as on my LinkedIn page. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or have ideas for future show topics, please email us at credit ego to go at car kill. com. Thank you. Be well and stay safe. This podcast is intended for general education and informational purposes only, and should not be regarded as either legal advice. or a legal opinion. You should not act upon or use this publication or any of its contents for any specific situation. Recipients are cautioned to obtain legal advice from their legal counsel with respect to any decision or course of action contemplated in a specific situation. 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